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  • 才哥

    第21楼2009/05/06

    又要重复把之前的观点说一次:法规说了超过0.1%必须传递信息,但是从没说不超过0.1%就不用传递信息。

    对于这一点我们只能这么理解:如果超过0.1%,你不传递信息,那么你是违反REACH法规要求的;如果没超过0.1%,你不传递信息,那么你没有违反REACH法规要求,可是你客户的产品是最终出口,因为你不传递信息,可能导致最终出口商违反REACH要求,这就是其中的风险。

    REACH毕竟是管控的最终出口商/进口商/制造商,虽说法规里提到了供应链信息传递的要求,可是中国的供应链如果就是不按照REACH要求来做,ECHA还能来处罚这些供应商不成?所以甚至可以认为这个对供应链信息传递的要求,其实是欧盟官方给最终出口商/进口商/制造商在供应商管控方面的一个建议。真正能约束供应商的是整机厂,是订单,而不是欧盟不是ECHA。

    REACH应对是要整个供应链的配合,而不是供应链中某一环节拿出REACH法规中的条款说,我没达到这个条件,所以我什么都不用做。身处供应链的中间环节,你不但要考虑自己的责任,更要考虑自己客户的责任,最终客户不出问题,那么你才是安全的。所以,供应链应对REACH,其实应以最终整机出口符合要求为目标,在这个目标下再来分担各自的责任,这才是真正的配合。

    jeewah 发表:问题是REACH有规定,达到信息传递要求的,必须传递信息,岂能说掩耳盗铃?达不到信息传递要求的,就不需要传递信息.

    如果按你所说,所有的SVHC都需要计算而无论其浓度是多少,那REACH规定0.1%就没有意义了.几个、几十个、几百个PPM的浓度都需要进行计算,在操作上也是不方便的吧。

    的确,通过检测与通过按规定进行信息传递而统计的数据会有差异,但不能因此而否定REACH的操作规范。REACH强调的是供应链上的信息传递,对于信息传递的操作,并没有强调测试。SDS、SVHC信息调查表、物品SVHC信息评估报告等都是信息传递的形式。

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  • jeewah

    第22楼2009/05/06

    企业要求,可以在REACH筐架下更严格、更具体,这是可以的。
    正如有些企业要求供应商给出所有SVHC信息,无论其浓度多少;有些企业要求供应商提供材料的BOS(物质成分表)。这些要求是正当的,至于是否可以做到,也是需要讨论的。

    REACH的理想就是指出危害物质,并要求对其进行关注,使某些危害物质在受控状态下使用,限制某些危害物质在某些用途或全面用途的使用。

    电池中铅超标,是被允许(授权)的,但必须标示铅的符号在电池上,这和REACH物品中SVHC超过浓度规定但需要告诉消费者/接受者的思路一致;电池中如果含铅但浓度没有超过限量,则不必在电池上标示铅的符号,虽然没有规定不必标示。

    电池及其他指令之所以有标示规定,目的是为了传达危害物质信息,提醒接受者/消费者注意。
    REACH物品中SVHC的信息传递思路也正是如此。

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  • 才哥

    第23楼2009/05/06

    法规第33条原文如下:
    Article 33
    Duty to communicate information on substances in articles

    1. Any supplier of an article containing a substance meeting the criteria in Article 57 and identified in accordance with Article 59(1) in a concentration above 0,1 % weight by weight (w/w) shall provide the recipient of the article with sufficient information, available to the supplier, to allow safe use of the article including, as a minimum, the name of that substance.

    2. On request by a consumer any supplier of an article containing a substance meeting the criteria in Article 57 and identified in accordance with Article 59(1) in a concentration above 0,1 % weight by weight (w/w) shall provide the consumer with sufficient information, available to the supplier, to allow safe use of the article including, as a minimum, the name of that substance.

    The relevant information shall be provided, free of charge, within 45 days of receipt of the request.

    中文译文就不写出来了。

    如果真要深究其中的字眼,至少还有如下几个漏洞:
    1,其中提到“……要向接受方提供足够的信息,包括允许安全使用,至少要有物质的名称”。注意后面这个至少,这是否意味着,假如某供应商供的物品某SVHC含量超过0.1%,也可以只告诉客户含量超过0.1%的那个SVHC的名称,而不用提供具体的含量?

    2,“相关信息在45天内免费提供”。那么假如客户被欧洲消费者索取信息,他只有45天时间,现在客户开始进行供应链调查,发调查表给我,我回复的期限也是45天,那如果我到第45天才回复客户,我是合法的,那客户岂不是违反REACH要求了?

    以上说这些其实是钻牛角尖,是供应商站在自己符合REACH法规要求而不考虑客户应对的角度上来采取的一些做法,这些做法最终都会导致客户违法。说这些的目的还是想表明,应对REACH是需要配合的。

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  • 才哥

    第24楼2009/05/06

    SVHC的通报和信息传递其实就是一种风险提示,这没错。但是你一直在回避问题点:也就是:供应商完全按照REACH法规的要求来操作,仍然可能导致成品厂不符合REACH。

    我想这个讨论基本可以得出结论了:供应商(或者供应链的中间环节)回复客户调查时,按照REACH法规,可以只告诉客户SVHC含量小于0.1%,或者大于0.1% ,供应商这么做是合法的。但是到成品厂的层面就完全不同了,供应商如果只提供是否大于0.1%的信息,成品厂完全没办法控制风险。

    在这种情况下,供应商如果只考虑自己符合而提供一些无价值的信息,显然是不负责任的。



    jeewah 发表:企业要求,可以在REACH筐架下更严格、更具体,这是可以的。
    正如有些企业要求供应商给出所有SVHC信息,无论其浓度多少;有些企业要求供应商提供材料的BOS(物质成分表)。这些要求是正当的,至于是否可以做到,也是需要讨论的。

    REACH的理想就是指出危害物质,并要求对其进行关注,使某些危害物质在受控状态下使用,限制某些危害物质在某些用途或全面用途的使用。

    电池中铅超标,是被允许(授权)的,但必须标示铅的符号在电池上,这和REACH物品中SVHC超过浓度规定但需要告诉消费者/接受者的思路一致;电池中如果含铅但浓度没有超过限量,则不必在电池上标示铅的符号,虽然没有规定不必标示。

    电池及其他指令之所以有标示规定,目的是为了传达危害物质信息,提醒接受者/消费者注意。
    REACH物品中SVHC的信息传递思路也正是如此。

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  • 海啸

    第25楼2009/05/06

    多谢"才哥"和"jeewah"的精彩讨论,学习了不少内容,
    平日里,我们应对SVHC的调查都是表象的,没有怎么具体,
    看到这里的讨论后,才发现我们的操作存在诸多漏洞,
    想请教下:有没有适合整个供应链来应对SVHC的方法呢?
    该如何操作呢?

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  • sowhat

    第26楼2009/05/14

    理不辩不明!
    抬杠长学问,哈哈

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  • 智慧的弟弟

    第27楼2009/06/20

    哈哈,又转战到这边来了

    还是觉得这个东西存在理解上的差异

    而且,我们不知道当初编写这个法规时,编写者对于部分条款的本意。

    REACH有没类似实施细则或解释之类的文本呢?

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  • tiankonggu

    第28楼2009/07/28

    个人理解,不仅要考虑零部件中SVHC浓度大于0.1%的信息。
    因为依据Guidance for articles-8.2的
    Article producers
    • Request the supplier of substances/preparations included in the article to provide the registration
    number, when available, the identity and concentration range of any SVHC on the candidate list
    and contained therein. For article components, ask the supplier to either confirm that no SVHCs
    on the candidate list are contained in concentrations > 0.1% (w/w) in the article or to specify the
    identity and concentration of the SVHC in the article.
    Article importers and only representatives
    • Request the supplier to confirm whether or not an article contains any SVHC on the candidate
    list in concentrations > 0.1% (w/w). If the supplier cannot confirm this, ask for the identity and
    the amount (or concentration) of these substances in the article. If he is not willing or able to
    provide these, ask him to forward your request to the next actor up his supply chain or to provide
    you with the contact details of his suppliers.
    All article suppliers
    • Collect information from studies and surveys, if available, on the specific article made by e.g.
    EU Member States (e.g., www.mst.dk “Survey and migration of chemical agents in
    toothbrushes”, Survey No. 42, 2004) and branch knowledge to confirm information from supply
    chain communication or to find information on the likelihood of an SVHC being contained in
    the article.
    SVHC信息还是拿在手上比较好啊,否则真被刁难起来真的会很累的啊。

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  • tiankonggu

    第29楼2009/07/28

    另外在guidance for articles的8.4 determination of the concentration of SVHC-focus on articles with different components则具体讲解大家讨论的问题。
    8.4 Determination of the concentration of SVHC – focus on articles with different components26
    For each article, it must be determined whether the concentration of the identified SVHC is > 0.1%
    (w/w) in order to know what information has to be communicated down the supply chain. A further
    assessment is needed to find out if a notification of these SVHC is required. Methods for obtaining
    information on the concentrations of SVHC in articles and the use of quantitative chemical analysis
    have been elaborated in previous chapters of this guidance (see Chapter 4, Section 5.2 and Section
    8.2). However, it should be noted that an article producer should consider the possibility of using
    mass balance for determining the concentration of SVHC in his articles and also be aware of the
    possibility of accumulating a SVHC through a process. This chapter focuses on determining the
    concentration of a SVHC in articles with different components.
    The SVHC may be contained in different concentrations in different components of the same article,
    e.g. one concentration in the chassis of a computer and another concentration in the transformer.
    The concentration threshold of 0.1% (w/w) refers to the average concentration of the entire
    article as produced or imported.
    The principle to be applied when calculating the concentration of an SVHC in an article is illustrated
    by two cases:
    1 Different components for a computer such as transformer, rectifier, mother board, memory,
    processor, hard drive, graphics card, network card, sound card and chassis are purchased by a
    producer of a computer. All these components are obtained from producers and importers
    within the EU and the content of SVHC above 0.1% (w/w) should be indicated to the producer
    (Article 33) and possibly notified where needed by the suppliers of the components. The producer
    of the computer would therefore not have to notify any of those substances again.
    Furthermore, if no components contain above 0.1% of a SVHC on the candidate list, also the
    entire computer would not contain above 0.1% and no further considerations are needed.
    If one or more of the components contain more than 0.1% of a SVHC on the candidate list, the
    producer of the computer would have to check whether the computer he places on the market
    would contain above 0.1% of that SVHC – averaged over the weight of the computer. If yes, he
    will have to supply information according to Article 33.
    If the producer himself adds a SVHC to one or more parts of the computer, he will have to
    check whether the 0.1% threshold is exceeded for the computer he finally places on the market.
    If yes, he will have to provide information according to Article 33. He may additionally have to
    notify if the 1 tonne tonnage trigger for that SVHC is exceeded.
    2 A chair is imported from Taiwan. It consists of a wooden part and a plastic part. The producer
    of the chair informs that the two parts contain xyz% and abc%, respectively of a SVHC on the candidate list. Based on this information, it is obligatory to check if the threshold of 0.1 % is
    exceeded. This could be done by calculating the concentration of this SVHC in the whole chair
    as described below and illustrated in the below example box.
    计算公式及范例请见附件。
    图表格式,这里无法显示就用图片代替吧
    If the exact concentration in the article or the article parts is not known, a first screening may be
    performed on the basis of the maximum amount or concentration in the whole article or the different
    parts. If this shows a concentration > 0.1%, a more precise determination of the SVHC amount
    or concentration should be made

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  • 东方逸

    第30楼2009/08/05

    这个话题有意思,我只懂得一点皮毛,下面有说错的或问得太笨的别见怪:

    1. 如果构成整机的几个部件SVHC含量均低于0.1%的话,那整机就不管计算不计算也肯定都是小于0.1%的了。

    2. 如果出现才哥所举的例子“某产品共含A、B两个部件,其重量分别为10g和5g,含有HBCDD的含量分别为0.09%和0.2%”这样的情况,那我有一个疑问就是:其中有一部件SVHC含量是大于0.1%的,那这个信息不是会传递到整机的客户这边来吗?如果客户得知这个部件svhc含量这么高,八成是不会用的;假如非用不可,那这个部件在整机的重量百分比也应该很小才行。如果A部件小于0.05%(500mg/kg),那么只要B部件占整体质量不超过33%,整机就可以过关啦。

    所有部件的信息都应该传递到“整机”这边来,如果SVHC有大于0.1%的部件,整机的主人应根据该部件的SVHC具体数值和该部件在整机的分量来确认是否使用该部件及整机的SVHC是否合格。

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